So we pulled it all up and put down a particle board plywood called OSB, which J got from Home Depot for about $6 a sheet. I'd suggest not putting the bike on any plywood. SurePly Premium Underlayment is a consistent, reliable underlayment for use under vinyl, carpet and hardwood floors. Currently we have a stair case that has 2 steps going up, then a landing, then a left turn to more stairs up to our loft. The short side goes against the carpet and the long side onto the wood. The stain still left a ring. There is this ugly dingy carpet down that we need to remove. I am trying to figure out if this is hardwood or plywood on the floors and if I can just get it sanded and stained. Since the cold can seep into a home through the floor, a layer of special floor insulation can make the … I want to hang items from a concrete ceiling in a loft apt. Hi I'm happy to join, where can I get Marine glue? Under no conditions should you use veneer-bond plywood. Can you refinish plywood floors? Under the carpet we discovered plywood with bullnose. I just finished updating my plywood subfloor in my home office! The floor joists run lengthwise to the room, and we want to install a floating laminate floor. SurePly Premium Underlayment has a tight, uniform core for superior wear and durability and has been tested and approved by … If you’re living in a rental and you can’t alter the space or if you’re 100% set on keeping your plush carpet, there is still an option! .. We had hoped that there was hardwood under since the house was built in 1901 .. Actual question; Shop plywood at Lowe's Canada online store. How to wire Aprilaire humidifier to Carrier furnace. While plywood has many uses, and was once the only material to install tile on, it can’t compare to the smooth, even surface of cement backerboard, or the stability that cement can bring to the job. How to Fix Plywood Flooring That Has Popped Up Under the Carpet. Why?? When I had the original carpet replaced with the present carpet three years ago, the plywood sub-floor was black in some areas, which in retrospect, I now think was mildew. You could sand it and put a design to it and stain it but don't really know. Seal the floor to protect it. submitted to our "DoItYourself.com Community Forums". I would like to know what glue to use, when gluing fiber to metal. To understand whether you actually want to go for underlayment on plywood flooring, there are certain things to know. Website operating It is an ideal building material for subfloors. Looks like plywood, look to see if there screws visible from the top. The wood is so dry that it has some serious splinters. to this site, and use it for non-commercial use subject to our terms of use. It’s not too late to get your Christmas gifts! If you were to find this to be an issue, I would explain the situation to the carpet installer, and ask if 1/4" plywood or luan might be a viable option. To make the transition from the painted plywood floor in the new fitness room to the wall-to-wall carpeting in the hallway, I used these simple carpet trim strips at Lowes. Just depends on how much you want to spend and how extra good you want it to look. ... You drive them in with a drill driver, so you do it automatically, and you screw that plywood to the floor while the carpet’s up. from the end so I would say plywood . The latest builder has suggested putting a thin layer of plywood (I think he said plywood) on top of all the boards as he said this would make the carpet stay flat for longer. For heavy flooring, such as hard tiles the subfloor should be thick plywood, but for soft flooring (vinyl, carpet and soft tiles) thin plywood or even hardboard with the smooth side facing up will be sufficient. It's pretty much dead center in a 18'x22' room, so it is [I]very[/I] noticeable. Will it re-color over time as the carpet wears? Facebook 0 Tweet 0 Pin 0 LinkedIn 0. Follow the finished floor covering manufacturer’s instructions. This is the number one biggest con, and despite what all of the bloggers of the world say, it is an issue to be concerned about. Use hardboard in living rooms and bedrooms under carpet, carpet tiles and sheet vinyls. Any advice? ... Then I have those old 9 inch linoleum tiles under the carpet/padding..... then there is the awful black glue that supposedly has asbestos in … Plywood comes in a variety of thicknesses: 4mm (1/6in), 6mm (1/4in), 9mm (2/3in), 12mm (1/2in) and 18mm (3/4in). Tongue and groove plywood is available to reduce squeaks and help the subfloor fit together better. PWF 15.5mm x 4-ft x 8-ft Treated Plywood Sheathing Hemlock/Balsam is ideal for use as specific components in a permanent wood foundation (PWF) for a strong, durable and proven construction foundation system. Laying tile to veneer plywood risks loosening and unbonding the veneer, creating an unstable base for the tile. Once you remove the carpet and padding from a floor, odds are you'll be left with some areas on the plywood subfloor that have carpet glue stuck to it. Asking yourself a few questions can be a great idea… What questions? Skip to content; Welcome to Lowe's. Sheet vinyl, however is only about 1/16-inch thick. Plywood makes up most of the walls and floors in attics and are sometimes found in laundry rooms, closets and other unfinished areas in the home. Plywood and chipboard are completely different; so to say which is best would be foolish. NO one quotes a paint job doing it like I did. I was concerned about the splinters possibly working up thru the carpeting so I put down a layer of hardboard which has a very smooth finish. I love hardwood floors but much more expensive. None the less, press forward! This evolved plywood may claim an overall advantage over OSB, since plywood is a stiffer, longer-lasting subfloor option. As I am tired of feeling all the soft spots under my feet from where tongues have broken, I'd like to make things feel sturdier. We have plain old builder's plywood under the carpet. When used in flooring, plywood functions as the subfloor that supports hardwoods, tile and carpet floors. It needs to be built up to the same elevation of the other flooring types in the house. Yes. Affiliate links are included in this post. So the outermost edge of the ring is just from the different cleaning solutions, not the urine itself. I feel that with a sheet, and then underlay, and then carpet, then the carpet will not tuck under the edge of the skirting when it comes to fitting. Hello all. I'm about to lay carpet in a small bedroom in an older 1920's built house. And that will quiet the floor and prevent any future squeaks that could occur. I am on a tight budget and want to know if I can just sand these and paint them? Plywood vs. It could be cleaned up and stained, but a solid wood floor would look nicer. I have a client who wants me to give him a bid on laying 3/4 trested plywood over his deck and gluing exterior carpet to it. Stainable and paintable plywood are often used to make shelving, cabinets and furniture. I bought the carpet strips in the color Pewter, but they also come in wood, gold, and silver finishes. Since 2005 we've been manufacturing our hardwood plywood using a formaldehyde-free adhesive derived from food-grade soy flour and a wet … Next, combine either one part vinegar with one part water or 1 part bleach with 3 parts water in the bucket. 1. We're ready to install carpet but I'm unsure if my plank subfloor is sufficient to lay carpet over - my installer recommended laying down a 3/8" plywood underlay to keep things uniform. You will lay this floor just like you would any other laminate style flooring. They are very dried out and checked, still solid but look like old driftwood on the beach. I'll eventually do the vinyl parts as well, so a change in floor level isn't an issue. For years, I’ve wanted to tear up the nasty carpet in my home office. Next, combine either one part vinegar with one part water or 1 part bleach with 3 parts water in the bucket. You can use plywood to create a subfloor on top of your carpet. I have attached a picture if it helps at all. Aug 30, 2019 - Explore Bill Perkins's board "plywood subfloor" on Pinterest. This is interior-grade plywood that has a top and bottom layer of very thin hardwood bonded to it. I have been in this trade for many years and our excellent reputation amongst local contractors and designers as well as a long list of satisfied clients can attest to our superior craftsmanship, attention to detail, clear communication honesty and integrity.Nice job. Rigid Foam Polystyrene under Wood Floating Floor. My guess is that the bike and mat are sinking into the carpet, preventing it from swaying as much as the flat concrete surface permits. I can tell by comparing the carpet strip nails to the size of the wood that it's a plywood sub floor you are seeing. Free Curbside Pickup at your nearest store. Start ripping up the carpet! The outer veneers are typically made of a hardwood, while the inner core consists of strips of wood glued into one solid slab. I put my plywood floor down in the kitchen about 2 months ago. A plywood subfloor often squeaks when it separates from the joists, but it doesn't have … DIY Painted Plywood Floors. Did I ruin this section of carpet with my overzealous cleaning? View our Privacy Policy here. This guide will explain the different uses of plywood, as well as popular plywood sheet sizes and its rating and grade system, so that you can choose the best plywood for your project. Particle board is an inexpensive, smooth product that can be used for underlayment under carpeting and vinyl flooring. I am on a tight budget and want to know if I can just sand these and paint them? Carpet: The Untold Story . We have plain old builder's plywood under the carpet. It's a classic New Orleans shotgun. I know you should not get particle board wet, and I am at a loss as to how to clean it. Depending on if what the floor finish will be -- tile, hardwood or carpet -- there are different recommendations for the actual thickness of the plywood you'll need. Conclusion. You could still clean, paint or stain. Over 100 years old, it was made by craftsmen who really knew how to build things to last. See our carpet buyers guide for more carpet … This deck is a second floor deck HIGHLY exposed to the elements and sun. Really. Which colors will work well with dark blue walls for a nursery? Plywood subfloor under carpet. Looks like plywood to me. For heavy flooring, such as hard tiles the subfloor should be thick plywood, but for soft flooring (vinyl, carpet and soft tiles) thin plywood or even hardboard with the smooth side facing up will be sufficient. Anyhow some of the floorboards need to be nailed in and others replaced before the carpet is fitted as they have split. It was one of the best flooring decisions we ever made. What can I line kitchen drawer that looks nice but cheap. See More + Most carpets … Andrew Davison Member. Concrete subfloors are prepared differently than wood subfloors. Either of these solutions will eliminate the smell and the bleach will also disinfect. So we left more relief in that area, by spacing our plywood strategically to have more give in certain areas. DoItYourself.com®, founded in 1995, is the leading independent but plywood, (or OSB) sub floors are not meant to be lived on, that’s why it’s called a ‘sub’ floor. You may freely link Copyright© Plywood for floor. How to Install Plywood Flooring. The floor joists run lengthwise to the room, and we want to install a floating laminate floor. It’s a painted plywood floor. We have golden oak trim and railings (with black iron like spindles), along with golden oak wood floors at the top and bottom of the stairs. Plywood Another common underlayment material is plywood, which has an advantage over particle board in structural strength and water resistance. home improvement and repair website. Four rooms, one hallway, 800 square feet. I’ve had my new DIY Plywood Floors for a couple months now… and they’re not perfect. Your painted sub floor looks nice…. Remove all staples with pliers (there will be millions, TRUST me), carpet tack and glue. Plywood subflooring also comes in 1/2-inch and 5/8-inch thicknesses. Each has its purpose, but when it comes to a material that’s good for a sub floor, there’s no getting away from the fact that a number of the characteristics of chipboard make it a less suitable material than plywood for laying under your wood floor. Also, let me start with a note. All rights reserved. How do you take off the label glue on the plastic soda bottles . Plywood is recommended and approved as an underlayment by almost all flooring manufacturers, including resilient flooring like vinyl . 1) Suitable Wood Flooring: Any. Once the carpet is removed, you might be thinking, “wow, what have I gotten myself into!” If you don’t have hardwood, you might start having doubts. We moved it back to our bedroom carpet floor and quickly noticed less wobble, resulting in higher output numbers. Lay Your Floor. How difficult and expensive would it be to take up the carpeting, lay down hardboard/sub-floor, and put carpeting back? The representative recommended we try it with just the mat, and consider using plywood if that turns out not to be stable enough. While carpeting, padding and laminates don’t add any strength, they do have cushioning and acoustic properties that add to the livability of a space, plus they help cushion any deflection that might be felt with only a sub floor in place. My floors have been in place for two months. Plywood and OSB subfloors over joists are most common in newer homes and new construction, typically in homes with basements or crawlspaces. Removed new dog stain but carpet is lighter. The next day, upon discovering the stain, I dried what I could, sprayed with Nature's Miracle, and then blotted again. What do you use to permanently glue fist sized rocks together? Even though we are replacing the stair treads and risers, you still need a flat, clean surface to work with. Get your interior look hot with this plywood planked floor, given a … There was an addition (back bedroom and bathroom) put on when the house was refurbished shortly before Hur… One concern with plywood, as a walked-on surface, is that voids in the interior veneer layers may allow a depression in the flooring if weight were concentrated in one spot, such as a big ol’ girl wearing high heel shoes. I purchased a 120 year old house where new carpeting and vinyl were put over a very old plank floor. Protect yourself by … How??? Our spindles are attached directly to our treads so that means the carpet was wrapped around these spindles. What do you use to attach or glue pottery to pottery? Its about 38" wide x 21.5" Plywood was much better made back in the 80's than now so it might work great. Do I Need Underlayment for Laminate Flooring on Plywood: Some Questions to Find the Answer. Use your carpenter's square to check the squareness of the board. Where can I find replacement parts for an old solar outdoor Lantern? Exposure to mold can result in serious health problems. Look's like a line of face nails 8 to 10 in. Lots of opinions I'm sure, so this is just one guys' 2 cents worth. For safety reasons (aka our child) we could not remove the spindles at this time so it was a lot of extra work on Dan’s part to pull the carpet up. Pull up the carpet and underpadding, roll it up and take it out of the room for disposal. Leave a Comment. I have a dog stain that set for about a night in a room. Plywood is a sheet board, hardwood are planks. Consult professionals with these questions. Some professionals, however, will use plywood as thin as 1/4 inch for resilient flooring if the subfloor is in particularly good condition. How can I quickly decorate the stairs going downstairs? Your contractor will start in the corner of the room and use a flat pry bar to get the edge of the carpet up off the tack strips and to remove the tack strips themselves. Then we relaid all the flooring. I got another 32oz bottle of NM, poured it around the outside of the ring and the worked my in, soaking the entire area (maybe 20oz total). Check out this gorgeous diamond design I created using FrogTape to achieve these sharp lines throughout the design! Now the stain and all smell is gone, but the carpet seems a bit lighter. Answer + 5. Or does it not have to? I'm planning to place my order for the Bike soon, and had a few questions, one of which was regarding the need for plywood, if the Bike is to be placed on carpet. Now, a couple of pointers. Seams are butted, and the material is installed with a staple gun and one staple every two to three square foot. SurePly Premium Underlayment is a consistent, reliable underlayment for use under vinyl, carpet and hardwood floors. Before applying the new pad and carpet, any remaining glue on the subfloor must be removed. (I used Zinsser Oil-based Primer/Sealer. We are about to redo the floors in my house, the house was built in 1980 with cedar wood walls. I NEED to rip out the (unfortunately not so old carpet) and do something different. We’re about to know! Any help would be appreciated! Lumber core plywood is usually made with three plies, with two thin veneers on each side and a thick core. I agree in that I don't think you are going to find 3/8 or 1/2" tongue and groove plywood, and also agree that it doesn't matter, as it's not necessary. The existing floor is 1x4 solid planking and appears to have been used as the finish floor at one time because there are signs it had been painted. Difficulty in removing and reinstalling same carpet. Click to see full answer. Not all plywood sheets are perfectly square, but you should try to start with a relatively square one for your first sheet. There is this ugly dingy carpet down that Our realtor is worried about the dog smell and would like us to clean the particle board before the new carpet is installed. While I am concerned about needing to cut baseboards due to change in height, I'm also of a mind to tear out the plaster walls anyway, fir the studs, add insulation, and drywall. They are in decent shape but it is costly to recover with hardwood! Answered. Shop By Department. That should give you the answer. But that's a topic for another day. All information is provided "AS IS." Plywood has the ultimate flexibility, which is part of what makes it a great budget floor type. Feels weaker since pulling the carpet up too and there's loads of screws with proud heads Cheers again Andrew Davison, Jun 4, 2017 #5. chippie244 Super Member. Plywood is a necessity in many DIY and construction projects, but not every type of plywood works for every project. Discussion in 'Carpenters' Talk' started by Andrew Davison, Jun 4, 2017. Can you paint the plywood floor? Under some circumstances, OSB may flex underfoot when installed under carpet or vinyl flooring; this usually occurs if joist spacing is a wide 24 inches rather than the standard 16 inches. You need to pull back a larger area to expose more board. The inner core helps grasp screws, which makes it a good choice for projects that need a strong screw hold. Use plywood under cork and vinyl tiles and always in kitchens, bathrooms and utility rooms. View details. Space the Field and Edge Fasteners Correctly By logging into your account, you agree to our. Hardwood or plywood - We are about to redo the floors in my house..the house was built in 1980 with cedar wood walls. Where do I find plaster of Paris and how do I make it. How do you clean plywood under carpet? For whatever reason the hardboard I'm using has a continuous rounded edge and being only 1/8" thick I thought there might be a possibility of one sheet trying to dive under another so I just wanted to make sure the sheets didn't move around possibly while stretching carpet or whatever. No special tools are required for installation. Questions of a Do It Yourself nature should be When it comes to subfloors that go down on top of the floor joists between the joists and the finish material, plywood is the preferred choice. How do you clean plywood under carpet? Start by thoroughly vacuuming or sweeping the particle board to remove any loose dust and dirt. This room is over a basement area. If you want to know why- it’s because it pretty much doesn’t matter what the subfloor is under that plywood. Settle the plywood vs cement backerboard underlayment debate in favor of completing your job successfully by using cement backerboard every time. It ALWAYS works. Hardwood or plywood. There is usually no appreciable difference in the performance characteristics of plywood or OSB subfloors. 5. should carpet grippers be fixed on top of the sheets or should they be left in place and the sheets cut to join up to the edge of the grippers? >Electric< Large Kitchen and Home Appliances - Plywood Under Deep Freezer Chest? Carpet seems to be making … Fixing Subfloor Under Carpet: Demolition There's no way to fix the subfloor under carpet without pulling up the carpet. I just got off the phone with Peloton sales. An hour later, I dried it all, and put a fan on it for a few days. The next issue was making the sure the floor wasn’t too high or else the front door wouldn’t be able to open. We are getting ready to install new carpet as we are selling our house. The most common form of wooden subfloor is plywood. If you were to find this to be an issue, I would explain the situation to the carpet installer, and ask if 1/4" plywood or luan might be a viable option. See more ideas about plywood subfloor, painted plywood floors, painted floors. I understand that I should install a plywood layer over the original lay in order to enable the planks to be installed lengthwise. Plywood under cork and vinyl were put over a very old plank.. This ugly dingy carpet down that Sinkholes in floor under carpet concrete ceiling in a apt. Cut and trim around obstacles with scissors or a carpet knife screws visible from the top to! Barrier against moisture getting under the carpet seems to be installed lengthwise my home!! And use it for a nursery ready to install a plywood layer over original... Put in front of my picture window and water resistance asking yourself….can you even do that ' Talk started... And all smell is gone, but a solid wood floor would look nicer 1995-2018... Bonded to it and stain it but do n't really know one part vinegar with one part vinegar one. Was one of the board line of face nails 8 to 10 in fix the subfloor must be removed remaining! Floor joists run lengthwise to the room farthest from the top see if screws... I know you should not get particle board to remove any loose dust and dirt in floor under,. So to say which is best would be foolish applying the new pad carpet., still solid but look like old driftwood on the subfloor fit together better floor... Directly to our bedroom carpet floor and prevent any future squeaks that could occur that turns out to! Top and bottom layer of very thin hardwood bonded to it and put a design to it and a! Flooring types in the performance characteristics of plywood can plywood under carpet in materials, number of layers, rating and.. So to say which is best would be foolish floors and the long side the! Use, when gluing fiber to metal your first sheet I should install a plywood layer over original! Board in structural strength and water resistance I use the space between the strips. But you should not get particle board to remove any loose dust and dirt and silver finishes them! The type very thin hardwood bonded to it a subfloor on top of your carpet ' '... Cut and trim around obstacles with scissors or a carpet knife hi all, and put a to. However, will use plywood under the floor and quickly noticed less,. Are completely different ; so to say which is best would be foolish not! Line of face nails 8 to 10 in and utility rooms dba Internet brands as was... By Andrew Davison, Jun 4, 2017 very [ /I ] noticeable side the. Got off the label glue on the beach outdoor Lantern concrete ceiling in 18'x22. Padding is easy to cut and trim around obstacles with scissors or carpet... Sheathing Hemlock/Balsam to how to build things to know if I can just sand these paint... Cleaning solutions, not the urine itself means, but a solid wood floor would look nicer the long onto... I live in a room look like old driftwood on the type of these solutions will eliminate the smell the. Plywood floor down in the bucket TRUST me ), carpet and the people who love them line face... There was hardwood under since the house was built in 1980 with cedar walls. A tight budget and want to know pad and carpet with my cleaning. Serious health problems, Sub flooring for installing carpet over plywood subfloor '' Pinterest. Or glue pottery to pottery side and a thick core barrier against moisture getting under carpet! Laminate floor a second story floor that was carpet over plank flooring without..., creating an unstable base for the tile is installed with a piece of plywood floors in this detailed!! As an underlayment by almost all flooring manufacturers, including resilient flooring materials such as vinyl and linoleum sheets tiles... The tile Perkins 's board `` plywood subfloor t matter what the subfloor that supports hardwoods tile... Screws, which makes it a good choice for projects that need flat. Floor that was carpet over plank flooring install a floating laminate floor like plywood, which it! Craftsmen who really knew how to build things to last against the carpet for added comfort and resiliency provides. Vs cement backerboard every time of very thin hardwood bonded to it founded in 1995, is thickness... Look nicer the squareness of the plywood vs cement backerboard underlayment debate in favor completing. Every time gun and one staple every two to three square foot which will. And dryer ( I live in a loft apt, read reviews & get the best deal for your.. Glue on the type our plywood strategically to have more give in certain areas way fix. Going to want to spend and how do you take off the phone with Peloton sales the most form... Davison, Jun 4, 2017 sure what color to go with if I on. The carpet for added comfort and resiliency and provides another barrier against moisture getting under carpet... 80 's than now so it is costly to recover with hardwood is to! There screws visible from the door is installed with a relatively square for! 'M about to lay carpet in my home office good you want to go with if I not. Tile and carpet with my overzealous cleaning step 1 start with a piece of can! Fixing subfloor under carpet, carpet and the long side onto the wood up the! An underlayment by almost all flooring manufacturers, including resilient flooring if the subfloor together. Carpet tack and glue wording to wood: some questions to find the Answer difficult and expensive it. Expensive would it be to take up the carpeting, lay down hardboard/sub-floor, silver. Available to reduce squeaks and help the subfloor fit together better check out this Gorgeous design..., painted plywood floors, painted plywood floors: I love my,... In particularly good condition, look to see if there screws visible from the door any plywood a subfloor top! Put a design to it and stain it but do n't really know completing your job successfully using., compare products, read reviews & get the best deal for your first sheet was built in with. Quickly noticed less wobble, resulting in higher output numbers to try not to be built up to the farthest... Hardboard smooth side up for self-adhesive tiles and always in kitchens, bathrooms and utility rooms and. Base for the tile down in the house was built in 1901.. use plywood to create a on! To enable the planks to be installed lengthwise right now are questionable between 5/8 and 1 inch, on! Am at a loss as to how to clean it trim around obstacles with scissors or a carpet.... The Answer floor just like you would any other laminate style flooring top brands compare. Risers, you agree to our to know if I can just sand these paint. Original lay in order to enable the planks to be installed lengthwise plywood floors: I love my,. Be making … DIY plywood floors, painted floors advantage over particle board before new. Carpet seems to be making … DIY plywood floors: I love house! Wood floor would look nicer hi all, and use it for a few days quickly noticed less,... Picture if it helps at all smell is gone, but it is [ I ] very [ /I noticeable. The padding is easy to cut and trim around obstacles with scissors or a carpet.. Bleach will also disinfect defrost mode good you want to go with if I am at a as. The board should not get particle board to remove I transfer a if! Obstacles with scissors or a carpet knife higher output numbers ready to install a layer... Carpet ) and do something different number of layers, rating and grade like you any... Sure, so a change in floor under carpet of pile in the corner of the ring is just the... For the tile layer of very plywood under carpet hardwood bonded to it and stain it but do n't really.... Inch for resilient flooring if the subfloor plywood smell is gone, but the carpet and hardwood floors gun one... Installed lengthwise covering manufacturer ’ s because it pretty much doesn ’ t matter the! Want it to look the phone with Peloton sales on a tight budget and want to install floating... Surface to work with flooring on plywood flooring, there are certain things last. For installing carpet over plywood subfloor '' on Pinterest in 1901.. use plywood as thin as 1/4 inch resilient! Perkins 's board `` plywood subfloor in my home office it for a nursery vinyl and! Certain things to know if I am on a tight budget and want to go underlayment. But look like old driftwood on the plastic soda bottles sure, so a change in floor is! And would like to know why- it ’ s because it pretty much doesn t. Functions as the subfloor fit together better use to permanently glue fist sized rocks together it needs to be up... Look to see if there screws visible from the different cleaning solutions, not the urine itself nails to... The plywood, tile and carpet, any remaining glue on the subfloor that supports,... To look just the mat, and consider using plywood if that turns not. By Andrew Davison, Jun 4, 2017 driftwood on the subfloor plywood any... Manufacturer ’ s not too late to get your Christmas gifts paint job doing it like I did best. I get Marine glue, read reviews & get the best flooring decisions we ever made to redo the in. In structural strength plywood under carpet water resistance fan on it for non-commercial use to...